Secular Democracy and Islamic Democracy
bismillah
An interesting article has been posted on the Austrolabe blog about Democracy and Islam. The brother raises the point that Democracy does not have to be secular and that Islam contains "democratic" rules in its political system (shura). Now that's all good, the very fact that Islamic rule is not being contested as in other "Islamic" blogs which I will not link to, is a sign of progress in the ummah. The question now is, why call it 'Democracy' and not 'Islam' if, as we agree, it's all in the message of the Mustapha (pbuh)?
An interesting article has been posted on the Austrolabe blog about Democracy and Islam. The brother raises the point that Democracy does not have to be secular and that Islam contains "democratic" rules in its political system (shura). Now that's all good, the very fact that Islamic rule is not being contested as in other "Islamic" blogs which I will not link to, is a sign of progress in the ummah. The question now is, why call it 'Democracy' and not 'Islam' if, as we agree, it's all in the message of the Mustapha (pbuh)?
posted by Abdul Rahman Hilmi at 6/11/2006 11:38:00 AM
14 Comments:
After looking at the Austrolabe site, they don't seem to be nearly as unrealistic as you are.
Do you all think that any of the current Muslim countries will simply let the person that HT puts in power over whatever land they desire and simply carve out part of their land for his domain without war with said country?
Put simply, would Saudi Arabia, Lybia or whoever, simply let HT establish a domain on their land without ramifications?
bismillah
assalamu alaikum
Ofcourse that would never happen. We are not looking for acceptance from the dictatorships in Muslim lands, we don't even need it. The Islamic rule comes by the will of the people, the Muslims, not by the will of tyrants and butcherers.
I hope I answered your question.
wassalam
wa alaikum salam
It seems that you did not understand my question unless you are saying that the current dictatorships would never go to war with HT's new country.
Let's say HT wants to establish their domain in part of what is now Saudi Arabia. Will the Saudis sit idely by while HT sets up a country on what it considers to be its land? Especially since HT has said that they plan to take over the other Muslim lands as well. There would be war between the HT country and the current governments.
bismillah
assalamu alaikum
Well ofcourse they would, to say the truth, I believe the West will be the first to attack.
HT believes that when the khilafah is established, a somewhat domino effect will occur throughout the Muslim world and the Muslims, when they see Islam is finally established as a leadership, will finally revolt against their oppresors and join the khilafah. The last thing HT wants is to shed Muslim blood and to fight Muslims against Muslims, but if, say Saudi Arabia, decides to send an army against the khilafah, then I think the Khilafah would protect itself. In its turn, the khilafah will work to unite all the Muslims from Morrocco to Indonesia.
wassalamu alaikum
My point is, brother, how does HT propose to take this land from Saudi Arabia to establish their country and the man of their choosing into power?
bismillah
assalamu alaikum
I apologise for not getting what you meant straight away.
Well first of all, if you're asking about how the khilafah will be established, ie, the method we use, this article should clear it up.
However, if you're asking about AFTER the establishement of the khilafah, well first of all, Hizb ut-Tahrir would seize to exist as we know it. The party would remove all links with the khalifah and work to keep him accountable. So Saudi Arabia and all other Muslim lands will be taken not by the party, but by the state as the khaleefah sees fit as long as he does not go outside of Islam.
wassalam
What you have in that article is no different than what other groups say about reviving the Ummah.
bismillah
assalamu alaikum
other groups like who? This method was put down by Sheikh Taqi al-Deen al Nabhani, the founder of Hizb ut-Tahrir, in the 1950s.
The article I refered to earlier shows how the prophet (pbuh) did it. Give me 10 minutes inshallah and I will write a new topic which shows in a more directly how the hizb plans to bring change inshallah and shows the relationship with that method the prophet (pbuh) used.
wassalam
Comment by A
Here are some of my thoughts/ideas:
I guess it would be a process.
However, Muslim populations have been suppressed by their so called democracies for almost 100 years. This is inspite of the fact that they are the majority or the ones that are to rule, by democratic theory. Until recently a majority of muslims were taken with the belief that this was not the result pursueing a "western style democracracy", but of their failure to realize a proper western style democracy. There was a great deal of very pursuasive propaganda about the superiority of the west and of life in the west which muslims generally believed until recently.
I live in the west. Westerners, themselves a population of depressed, bored, and purposeless people convince themselves continually that they are the greatest nation, not by the quality of their life, but by the fact that muslims are still coming in large numbers. In the past muslims who had given life a 50 percent effort in their country of origin came to western countries to achieve a level of success by giving 100 percent effort in the western country to which they came. After 50 years of patriotic effort to make these land their own, the counrties and majority peoples are turning against these muslim citizens in their own country, taking away their democratic voice and stripping theim of the freedoms they were garanteed. In addition, they are using taxes from the muslim immigrants to suppress and torment muslims worldwide, and to support Israel because of a widespread Christian doctrine that obligates them, to do so.
Now, eyes of muslims worldwide, incluing those in the west, are opening to the fact that the west or their own western style democracies in the muslim world will never give them freedom to act according to their own Islamic conscience.
The west sees the shift and is investing millions in propaganda to try to give its "mask for the muslim east" a face lift.
I don't believe that the world's muslims will ever buy into it again. Whatever they will do, they will do it on their own and not to the marching que of the west.
The only thing that still gives most muslims reservations is the lingering effect of western propaganda that taught that Islamic government is dangerous to human rights and especially womens rights, and prevents progress and prosperity. Like. I said, eyes are being opened, and even if many are still leary, they are now deciding in mass that anything better for the muslim will never come from the west.
Islamic revolution in this day and age will not be like that of the last century. People are going to expect and demand more than another western style democracy, and when a successful Kalifah is established populations will rise up over their leaders and liberate themselves. Then, provided their deen shows them the wrong of ethnic divisions and superiority complexes, which were created strategicly by the west, they will look to theri muslim brotherhood.
Negotiations would then be with the leading elders and influential youngers.
Incallah, unity will occur time and time again until the brotherhood of muslims agian simplifies the political complexities of this world.
Final note:
The west is still very successful in their campeign to divide muslims by accentuating ethnic pride. This has to be taken on now and head-on, as it will be a major. The worst ethnic superiority complexes I see are the three obvious: Arabs and types of Arabs, Turks and types of Turks, and Persians and types of Persians. The main barriers are linguistic, and nationalistic. Of coarse it is not realized as much if at all among the more devout, however, it is very strong with the average muslim, and it is poison.
How do we tear down the walls the west has so successfully built between muslims?
bismillah
assalamu alaikum my brother A
I agree with everything you said. The prophet (pbuh) himself said;
"The Prophethood will remain among you for as long as Allah wills, then Allah will lift it when He wishes to, then it will be a Khilafah Rashidah (Rightly Guided) on the method of the Prophethood, it will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah will lift it if He wishes, then it will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if he wishes, then it will be a tyrannical rule, and it will remain so for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes, then it will be a Khilafah on the method of the Prophethood, then he kept silent."
So after the tyrannies we will have the khilafah, there is no doubt. And we can see this today more than any other day, the Muslims are reviving to the message of Allah and the tyrannies are falling apart. Subhaan Allah, my brother A, walah everytime I think of how close the khilafah is I can feel my heart pounding in my chest. May Allah bless us to live under its shade or to die shuhadaa for its cause.
As my Turkish brothers would say "ya khilafah ya shahada".
wassalamu alaikum
The program you posted is very similar to Tabligh, and Ikhwan al Muslimoon, but with different approach.
bismillah
assalamu alaikum
Tabligh??? The brothers in the Tablighi Jamaat have no political interests at all, I even doubt they even aim to re-establish the khilafah. The tablighis are purely spiritual that I dare say they have a huge sufi influence. They spend their whole time going from mosque to mosque praying and teaching people how to pray and fast and get intouch with their souls. Which is good, but has very little to do with re-establishing an Islamic political entity. How exactly are we similar to the tablighis? Can you be more specific?
As for the ikhwaan, this is also not true. The modern ikhwaan are not interested in establishing a caliphate, they are divided into nationalities and they are only interested in establishing some form of Islam within their own national boundaries, I'd imagine something like Saudi Arabia. As for their original message with Hassan al Banna, I'm not very sure as I haven't read alot of his work. But as far as I understand, they were pro-armed struggle and indeed did raise arms in Egypt and Syria. I do know that sheikh al Nabhani used to be with the ikhwaan before he established Hizb ut-Tahrir. I also know that Hizb ut-Tahrir had a long discussion with the wonderful Sayed Qutb (who was one of the ikhwaan) who insisted on the direct armed struggle of the Muslims against their oppresors while the Tahrir men were trying to convince him that a peaceful coup and not a violent revolution is the key. Sayed Qutb said in the end "let them go for they will surely end where the ikhwaan began".
Today the ikhwaan are working within the corrupt systems, they enter elections and work through the parliment. In the last elections in Egypt, everyone knows the cheatings that happened that Mubarak was responsible for, that the elections werent fair. But will the ikhwaan learn? I really hope they would someday. As for the ikhwaan in Syria, they joined hands with Khaddam and several other parties including the Communists to topple the Syrian regime and they outright said without any shame that they are not interested in establishing an Islamic state and all what they want is a democratic state where all the parties can coexist together.
So I don't see how you could compare us to any of these two groups.
wassalam
I mean that HT is similar in the bottom-up approach. A grassroots approach, just giving a different message.
Tabligh is trying to revive the Ummah by doing what you mentioned: Going person to person until there is a saturation point and the people demand change. They are in a non-political stage right now. You are right in that unlike, HT and Ikhwan, they are not interested in holding power.
Ikhwaan wants to gradually power through parliaments. This also requires getting more grassroots support and going man to man to get it within the system
HT wants to go man to man and foster change until the people demand that HT be put into power
bismillah
assalamu alaikum
again this is partially true. The only reason HT speaks to the Muslim communities in general is because they don't want to rule over an unwilling people. But this has very little to do with getting the power reigns. HT aims to get power through a coup and coups only need influencial groups or maybe even a person.
wassalam
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